WHY IS OUR AUSTRALIAN GOVERNMENT GIVING INDONESIA SO MUCH??
Posted by: errolsyd
5th Jul 2012 09:27pm
Gillard has given Indonesia of late $300 million + 4 C130s planes, 3 ships worth over $2 million, money to build 20 police stations, $600,000 to Bali Sanglah hospital plus more.
When a boat sank the week before last and 90? people drowned, it was in Indonesia's search and rescue zone but Indonesia said they had “little” capacity to respond.
The boat was first discovered 63 nautical miles south-west of west Java - 200 nautical miles north-west of Christmas Island, and inside the Indonesian search-and-rescue zone.
AUSTRALIA is handing over two refurbished C-130 Hercules aircraft to Indonesia, boosting Jakarta's ability to patrol for asylum boats and assist in maritime emergencies. 2 more to come.
All this, when Indonesia has 74,000 active naval personnel with 150 ships which includes 7 Frigates, 23 Corvette class ships, 5 subs, 3 more being built, 70 Patrol craft, plus many more.
Airforce 34,930 plus 110 aircraft which already includes 21 C130s.
Indonesian Armed Forces budget 2012 $USD 7.5 billion.
How come the Australian taxpayer is forking out so much and still having to send our ships into Indonesian waters to rescue ILLEGAL BOAT PEOPLE and take them to Australian territory Christmas Island??? This is a farce!
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Comments 16
ozziedigger
Tongboy,welcome to cafe chat.You are fitting in quite nicely as far as i`m concerned.This whole discussion has been very informative.We seem to have settled on inscrutable Indonesia to pass on our thoughts in this chat, but there are many countries in this world who receive help,in many forms,from Australia.
In my ignorance,i don`t know of any country which has returned the favour.In many cases our donations are never enough to satisfy the chiefs,let alone the indians,but if the money was used in this country,it would make enormous differences to our DEserviNG needy.That`s what i`d like to see !
david
ozzyboy/tongboy you both have very good points on this topic.i am in agreeance with australia giving airplanes to indonesia,we also train pilots in australia.the boat people are just another annoyance the indonesions are passing on to us and as said costing the australian taxpayer millions,indonesia(bali)must be collecting millions from australians on bal i.in tourism another reason for supporting indonesia is because we are the land down under,we need indonesian military forces if we are ever attacked.it is a known fact that the indonesion government hates us.but very williag to take our money for our protection.the above may sound a bit confusing but i admit i did write it in haste cheers
ozziedigger
I hate the fact Australias dwindling money reserves are given to overseas countries.I read sometime ago where Indonesia bought many war machines from Russia.I forget the details,but many jet fighters (new ),submarines (new) ships and small to large firearms.Is this a reason to play nice to Indo ?Probably.I liked the brown nose theory, they are so close and so many,and we have such puny
defence. Bring on world peace LOL
tongboy
Cheers Ozziedigger. I think I get where you're coming from - and having your say and holding your opinions is also your sovereign right - and bad cess to anyone who tries to take that away from you. Or me for that matter :)
I know what you're saying about refos - there are veterans, junkies, single mothers, or just plain forgotten people living below the poverty line in this, the tenth richest country in the world. It's a disgrace. I do believe, however, that this can be fixed without actually affecting what we do overseas - in fact, i know it can as the money exists to do both. It's just that the domestic stuff is so horribly mismanaged.
Look forward to more chats - I've only just discovered this place: it's very cool!
ozziedigger
Tongboy---,thanks for bringing us up to speed with Indonesias` situation and a glimpse of how the country thinks and reacts.Yes,i would feel more comfortable if
Indon and Aus came together in friendship and loyalty to each other as that is what i`d like to see worldwide.
However,i`ve seen and learnt so much about shonky leaders in all countries to not feel comfortable about any thing.I don`t think i can do a damn thing about it but winge,and this i do to the best of my ability untill i`m told to shut up,and then i
might think about it.
We don`t need more refugees here,legally or not.At least untill all Australians
are better cared for as is our sovereign right.
tongboy
Mate - I'm pretty sure the indons bought migs, kilos and some armour off the back of the collapse of the USSR. They didn't do this to snub us - they could never afford our gear and, even if they could, the sheer number of US components and systems in them would have barred us from selling to them. They went to the only supplier that was open to them that had half decent stuff.
As for their land forces - we train their SF and paramilitary forces. As was seen by the confrontation that we never actually had in a certain eastern state - we cut through them like a hot k-bar through runny butter. we have nothing to fear.
Kirsten15
I have always been very critical of the Australian and Indonesian relationship. It seems to be very one sided with Australia doing everything we can to keep them on side and Indonesia taking more and more. I am not against sending aid or helping out the people but the Indonesian Government needs to do their part. Australia seems to be considered an important neighbour when we have things to give but we aren't listened to when we have opinions. This has been going on for years and our Foriegn Minister needs to get some solutions before we become a "yes' nation for Indonesia.
tongboy
I don't believe it's one-sided at all. Indonesia protests furiously any time any kind of merchant or naval shipping uses the East West route through their archipelago, as they say that this is not a valid trade route. They have a right to say this, especially as they concede seven North South routes through the middle of their country. Guess which nation can travel the East West route with nothing more than an occasional escort? Also, in terms of intelligence and other military, paramilitary and law enforcement co-operation, there are very few countries in the world who do more for us or are more open when it comes to co-operation. Aussie media only really reports on the few occasions when Indonesia insists on its sovereignty not being violated (like when they catch a drug smuggler, usually off a tip from our feds). The reality of the situation is very different.
errolsyd
Our foriegn minister is a labor joke played on Australia. It always has been a onesided relationship.
tongboy
Indonesia straddles our most direct northern routes into the open ocean. We require them to be both friendly and stable as 90% of our wealth relies on goods travelling through it.
Another reason is that, as an independant nation, Indonesia is approximately seventy years old. We and the international community at large are obliged to help.
I have personally seen the frigates and corvettes you are talking about. Indonesia is an archipelago and, as such, has almost as much coastline to patrol as ourselves. At their eastern and western boundaries they are actively combatting separatist insurgencies. Basically, these assets are overworked, undermaintained and overcommitted. It's not having assets that matters - it's having the fuel and weapons to run them - if you're essentially fighting two low level wars, 7.5bn will go without touching the sides.
I would check that fact about C-130 being used for maritime patrol. That sounds a bit stupid to me. Having said that, handing over supernnuated equipment makes great strategic sense. It renders the foreign power dependant on you for after sale support and means, in case of potential hostilities, you know their capabilities and limitations in this regard EXACTLY at a cost of zero intel assets.
And finally, boat people are not illegal until their claims for asylum have been refused.
tongboy
Yes, if you enter without a valid visa or passport you are entering illegally until you say I AM SEEKING ASYLUM. It's true I posted the link to the relevant refugee law somewhere in another discussion. I did patrol boat time - if they were just illegals we would simply arrest and deport them. people who come on boats and ask for asylum are asylum seekers (until proven otherwise) which is completely different from an illegal immigrant. In law, that is. And at some point down the track we discover if they are in fact illegal. If they were genuine refugees then at no point was what they did or how they arrived illegal as we are signatories to the UNHCR and have enacted it into legislation.
I would concede that corruption is endemic in Indonesia, but nowhere near as much as it was during the 80s and 90s. Nowadays, though, we see a new generation of politicians, mostly educated at ANU and UNSW, who not only do a great deal to improve our relationship, but are also progressively working to make Indonesia viable, safe and truly democratic country. Do we trust the generals? Hell no! But taking the long view - which is the only way to think strategically - Indonesia's potential future is largely positive, and there will come a time when we are happy about having been a part of creating that, and not just because it helped to guarantee the security and prosperity of our trade.
It's a simple two way alternative - do we want the elite of our second nearest and certainly most important northern neighbour to come from an educational background in:
a) Radical wahhabist madrassas in Yemen, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia
or
b) Australia
If it's option 'b', then there really is no alternative other than investment in Indonesia and, to be honest, I believe it is currently very cheap, considering what it buys us.
errolsyd
Well tongboy if you enter Australia without a valid visa or passport you are entering ILLEGALLY. You have made some good points but how much of our taxpayers money goes into the generals pockets?? Do I trust them NO I do not!!
Anonymous
I don't think the problem of not caring for our homeless is a lack of resources, rather lack of political will.
As with the boat people, the fundamental problems are not dealt with. For example, we get Afghans because there is a war. We were part of the creation of that ,as a part of the US alliance. the same with Iraq, and now more conflict and instability has been created in Libya and will be in Syria.
The solution to the problem, I think, is not create instability. Then people will not flee their countries.
errolsyd
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules.
19chris51
Sorry forgot, and send the "BOAT PEOPLE" back to where they came from, they have more money then I do, a pensioner, with a disabled son, I don`t complain about money I have enough to get by, (nice to have more though, hehe) but they get better then I (we) do, from our own GOVERNMENT, SICKENING
19chris51
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules.